- NEWS
- Auld Dubliner tries to break world record 3 hours & 1 minute ago
- Corporate O.C. practices purposeful giving
- Fear, distrust surround Capo teacher negotiations 3 hours & 53 minutes ago
- Poll: Brown, Whitman deadlocked in race for governor
- SPORTS
- UCLA takes advantage of Arizona State 1 hour & 6 minutes ago
- Bruins tailgate: 11-21-09 1 hour & 30 minutes ago
- Sharks hold off Ducks, 3-2 8 minutes ago
- Live updates from 'UFC 106: Ortiz vs. Griffin 2' 3 hours & 19 minutes ago
- BUSINESS
- ENTERTAINMENT
- LIFE
- TRAVEL
- Palm Springs Weekend 1 hour & 17 minutes ago
- Thanksgiving at the "Hotel Del" 1 hour & 31 minutes ago
- Traveling for the holidays? Here's some advice
- Slovenia: The quiet side of the Alps
- OPINION
Initiative to shrink California’s employee pensions gains steam from public outrage
September 30th, 2009, 5:00 am · 138 Comments · posted by Teri Sforza, Register staff writer
Coming, most likely, to a ballot box near you in 2010:
The Public Employee Benefits Reform Initiative, whose time may have finally come.
Launched in 2007 - and fading quickly from view after attacks from employee unions - the initiative would do what state and local politicians can’t, or won’t: “Place responsible limits on the defined benefit pension and retiree health care plans that can be offered to new state and local government employees.”
Reducing benefits and hiking retirement ages for new hires would save $500 billion over 30 years, backers say.
It’s the brainchild of Keith Richman (right) - physician, former Republican assemblyman and longtime advocate for overhauling the state’s pension system - who thinks now is the time to strike. The fiscal meltdown, and the tens of billions in unfunded pension liabilities that taxpayers would be on the hook for, translate into a public that’s far more savvy (and angry) about the issues than it was two years ago.
(On the advisory board of Richman’s California Foundation for Fiscal Responsibility, which is spearheading the initiative, are some familiar names: Orange County Supervisor John Moorlach, and Reed Royalty of the Orange County Taxpayers Association. Jack Dean, president of the Fullerton Association of Concerned. Taxpayers, is on its board as well.)
The foundation is revising the text of its 2007 initiative (which you can read by clicking here) to reflect 2
009 realities. In coming weeks, it will post a new version online and invite people to weigh in with suggested changes - including the employee unions (who may well sense an angry mob just beyond the horizon, and be more willing to play ball this time around).
Marcia Fritz (right), who has just replaced Richman as the foundation’s president (Richman remains on its board as a director), says there will be a couple of big revisions in the new text:
- An “anti-double dipping clause.” This will be a job-creator for California, she says; she continues to be shocked to see retirees collecting full pensions hired back by their old agencies, which gets them a pay check as well.
- Formulas will be reworked so that low-wage people who are not covered by Social Security won’t be worse off than if they had Social Security.
After folks weigh in with problems and suggestions, the text will be revised again, and perhaps again after that, Fritz said. She hopes to have it to the Attorney General by the end of October so the wording can be approved. After that, the intensive work of gathering signatures begins.
That’s where the last effort ran into a bit of a brick wall.
“If you value the job that your police officers, firefighters and teachers do for the community, please don’t sign this petition,” said radio ads that aired in 2007, paid for by the Los Angeles Police Protective League.
“We just feel very strongly about it,” President Tim Sands told the Los Angeles Daily News at the time. “We’re going to fight to tell people the truth - that we need to keep the benefits to hire the brightest and best.”
Many people agree that California’s current pension system has become so generous it’s unsustainable. Even the chief egghead for the gargantuan California Public Employees Retirement System said the same at a recent meeting.
“I don’t want to sugarcoat anything,” said Ron Seeling, the CalPERS chief actuary, according to a story in the Capitol Weekly. “We are facing decades without significant turnarounds in assets, decades of - what I, my personal words, nobody else’s - unsustainable pension costs of between 25 percent of pay for a miscellaneous plan and 40 to 50 percent of pay for a safety plan (police and firefighters) … unsustainable pension costs. We’ve got to find some other solutions.”
Fritz aims to be on the ballot in November 2010. Brace for a red hot rhetoric war in the months to come. (And be glad you’re not a director for the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California, which will vote on new contracts hiking employee pay and pensions Oct. 13.)
More Watchdog:
138 Comments
Leave a Reply
-
ADVERTISEMENT
-
Follow this blog:
-
More from OC Watchdog reports-
ADVERTISEMENT
You can follow this blog: on 
“If you value the job that your police officers, firefighters and teachers do for the community, please don’t sign this petition,” said radio ads that aired in 2007, paid for by the Los Angeles Police Protective League.
I value their service. I respect what they do. However, not at the cost of bankrupting the state. This petition will get lots of signatures now that these ludicrous pensions have been exposed and the general public has been educated about them.
Do you really believe that the pension system is what is “bankrupting” our state. Of the millions of things State Government throws money at during a fiscal year I wonder exactly how much is pension based?
It’s not millions. It’s tens of billions. Are you one of the recipients?
Maybe not, but I am. And I can tell you the one thing that Richman, Moorlach and all of the other Reps don’t want you to know: that there are thousands of so-called executive managers in state, county, local government and “districts” that reap hundreds of thousands of dollars in perks and benefits, INCLUDING PENSIONS COMPLETELY PAID FOR BY TAX[PAYERS. These are the things that are bankrupting government.
Most public employees at all levels, pay for their pensions. That includes the majority of public safety officers (remember, there are more peace officers than just police, sheriff and CHP). They also do not get social security when they retire, which is the big inferred lie that Big John and Lord Reed don’t want to let you know.
Until GASB arbitrarily changed the rules of accounting to force reporting of future liability without allowing you to report future assets and income on assets, there was no such thing as unfunded liability. That’s the big lie that these idiots don’t want to tell the public. Unfunded liability is only a reality if everyone retires at the same time. When do you think the entire AOCDS is going to retire en masse? Well, maybe now that they see what an idiot Sheriff Sandy is.
Gta go,
Keep da Peace
$500 BILLION - with a B. that’s half a trillion in case you couldn’t do the math. yes I’m in favor of it, who wouldn’t be? it’s the only sort of plan that makes logical or fiscal sense. and it’s especially telling that there ARE no other “plans” to reform the state pension problems.
yes $500 Billion, and this is just what the savings would be for our ONE STATE… pass it already.
No one should receive more than 50% of their pre-retirement salary as a pension. This 3% times years of service times final salary yields 90% of a person’s final salary. Frankly, that is obscene!
Yes, but that’s only for Safety plans in a small number of agencies, including OCERS. I know LA County doesn’t provide 3%, even to Safety members. And whhile the OCR has splashed its pages with examples of the highest pensions, they are a small (less than 2%) percentage of all retirees. The average CalPERS pension is around $16K per year. Not exactly breaking the bank.
Reforms aimed at the abuses are fine, but penalizing all retirees because a few are gaming the system isn’t reform. If you restrict pensions to 50%, you’ll simply have people retiring earlier and taking jobs elsewhere, while still collecting their pensions.
This is a classic knee-jerk reaction; thinking that simple-minded solutions will resolve complex issues.
45yrsinoc says:
Yes, but that’s only for Safety plans in a small number of agencies, including OCERS. I know LA County doesn’t provide 3%, even to Safety members. And whhile the OCR has splashed its pages with examples of the highest pensions, they are a small (less than 2%) percentage of all retirees. The average CalPERS pension is around $16K per year. Not exactly breaking the bank.
=============
The “average” Calpers pension is NOT $16K-another whopper lie. It is $30K
The fact is the $100K plus pensions are about 1% of the pensioners=but account for 10% of the money goling out the door-so it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that when the $100K pensioners grows to 5% of the pensions they will be costing a whopping 50% of the funds expenses.
reforming the biggest part of the problem FIRST isn’t simple minded at all.
It may be obsene to you, But to firefighters that have post career injuries from years of climbing up and down mountias , and breathing harmful hot products of combustion, it’s earned. We don’t live very long after retirement. So you can’t say we’re a burden on the penson system.
You’ve got it right. I respect all of the contributions by our public servants.
But, getting a government job and avoiding being fired should not be the same as winning the lottery. People in the real world of work don’t get these kind of deals.
Timing is everything. And I’m betting when it passes, you’ll see productivity increase since they won’t this on the ballot again. It’s about time!
Get the facts, the “Millions” they say that PERS will have to pay out is simply NOT true. Police Officers and Fire Fighter die much younger then private sector workers. The job stress and unusual hours takes it’s toll on the body. The pension amounts may seem generous but we do not live long enough to draw them for very long. The people drafting this bill have no idea, they’ve never worked a day in their life. DON’T be fooled. We are not complaining about the working conditions, we’re soldiers and we’re proud too serve.
Rob, the studies are in, it’s a total lie what your saying, you live just as long. IT’S BEEN PROVED
Words are cheap, especially when you’re speaking from the comfort of your own home. Try spending a little time out on the streets of Pico Rivera or Compton before you pop off!
And before you throw out the “but this is Orange County” line, remember that they’re talking about state legislation, not a County measure.
45yrsinoc says:
October 1, 2009 at 8:05 amWords are cheap, especially when you’re speaking from the comfort of your own home. Try spending a little time out on the streets of Pico Rivera or Compton before you pop off!
=============
You left out the part where you “dodge bullets” everynight for us….
Spent 25 years growing up in Pico Rivera, so dont try and tell me anything. If its to tough dont take the job.
Or how about sitting in a golf cart at SNA watching people pull up and drop off passengers for a few hours. That’s what I saw the other day while I was looping through waiting for a flight to arrive.
I wonder… and your families get the full tax-free pension if you do die early.
It’s like a lottery… if you lose (die), they win, if you live, they win.
It’s a guaranteed a lottery.
Wish we all had that. No need to save, no need for life insurance.
It’s tax free ? Dang it, I’m getting screwed again , Not Barney Frank ! First they take out $500 a month for my “free” medical plan, then the state and Uncle Sugar take $1600 a month from my ” taxfree” pension ! Thanks for the heads-up there, All-knowing One. Maybe if you paid more attention to your own affairs you’d have less incentive to gripe about what someone elsehas. Yea, I know, you pay taxes. So do I, so I guess I contributed twice to my retirement plan, as well as doing an honest days work plus everyday, as contracted for. Get your facts straight before you rant, and check your syntax, you mumble when you write.
Oldski.. your mistake was not faking a disability… in MA forexample you get the city paid doctor to rubber stamp your disability (a hang nail is fine) and you get full pay tax free for life.
Oh please God, Santa, Easter Bunny-please grant me this one wish and allow this initiative to get on the ballot!
If it qualifies, which I think it will, it’s curtains for these scam pensions.
“Retirement plans were designed to provide economic security to people when they were no longer able to do their jobs, so they could live out their remaining years with dignity and self reliance, not so they could double their income at the public’s expense, or retire as millionaires at age 50.”
Fairness is the issue here. Either everyone has access to such plans, or no one.
“Either everyone has access to such plans, or no one.”
And they say Obama is promoting socialism?
The scam might not being ended as union of state employees will fight hard with the support from Democrat and Republican politicians,.
We will have to pay more taxes to give all the state employees the raises and much better pension
So, hang on with the government to get paid handsomely!
The special elections earlier this year were a good harbinger of things to come. Most people in this state are sick and tired of being lied to, taken advantage of and having their taxes constantly increased. Supporting these pensions in the long run will mean tax increases to help fund them.
Great…we get to work until 75 years of age so the firefighters and cops can retire at age 50 and make more in retirement than they did while working. People vote with their wallets…and the majority of us are getting sick and tired of having our wallets emptied by the goons in Sacramento. The day of reckoning is not far off…
wheresthebeef? i know,it’s in your head cause you have no brain!! you throw tantrums like a 2 year old, only worse. your comments seem to be nothing more than insecure, bitter, and jealous tirades! you know nothing about the facts. hey wtb,can you tell me actually how much of your own tax dollars go to public employee pensions? or how many public employees actually retire at 50 y/o with 100k pensions? no you can’t because you have no facts…. it’s time for you to play cops and robbers now so put your plastic toy fire helmet and badge away,hahhhhhhhh!
Why don’t you read the following statement from the actuary of CALPERS and think long and hard about it. This is straight from the mouth of the person in charge of the fund:
“I don’t want to sugarcoat anything,” said Ron Seeling, the CalPERS chief actuary, according to a story in the Capitol Weekly. “We are facing decades without significant turnarounds in assets, decades of - what I, my personal words, nobody else’s - unsustainable pension costs of between 25 percent of pay for a miscellaneous plan and 40 to 50 percent of pay for a safety plan (police and firefighters) … unsustainable pension costs. We’ve got to find some other solutions.”
If we all pretend the problem doesn’t exitst, it will not go just go away. This is a huge problem that will eventually cost billions to fix if not reeled in. ARE YOU THAT STUPID AND BLIND…this needs to be dealt with asap.
Does anyone really want the officers that protect and serve them to be over 50 anyway ? I’ll retire at the age of 51 with 28 years of service. That gets me 84 % of my salary, which was negotiated and paid for our of compensation offered to me by my employer, no different that any other benefit. I will NOT receive social security and have to pay into a 457 account to subsidise my retirement. Unlike many employers my city does not match or even make any financial contribution to my 401 K of 457 account which is commonly done in the private sector. If there is a method other than working another job after retirement to make more than I did working please send me information on this. Please don’t blame cops for financial errors made in Sacremento.
All you idiots better be prepared to go and apply for that vacant police /firefighter/ teacher job- there will be many openings…………yes, your community will go to sh*t. Once you get hired and start doing the job you will understand what they are talking about. Not worth the pennies you will earn or retire with. But go ahead and vote for the demise of the pensions. i’ll be laughing
Regarding firefighters…you could cut the pay and benefits immensely and there would be no shortgage of people applying for the jobs.
Regarding teachers…your comment about our community going to sH*T. The LAUSD has a drop out rate of 50%. I think you are already at the sH*T level.
Regarding cops…you do have tough jobs. But you’re not worth the gold plated pensions. I doubt most of the force would leave if the pensions were reeled in. Where would you go? To the private sector?
If it means standing in front of Home Depot getting signatures, I will do it. See you there!
I concur… why is it (for years now) there are 300 nearly all qualified applicants for each open fire’figter’ job?
Simple… the deal is just too good. Too good for the often crony or paternally based selected new fire’fighters’.
stupid people, it is people like you that haved caused this. You have no pride in what you do and have no sense of moral obligation to provide a service. You just take take take. You feel the taxpayer OWES you and it is the other way around punk.. And it is already s..t so BRING ON those NEW folks.
stupid people says:
All you idiots better be prepared to go and apply for that vacant police /firefighter/ teacher job- there will be many openings
==================================
Hey Chicken Little, the sky is not falling.
I am sure there will be plenty of applicants for the most over paid and easisest job in gov- firewhiner.
Bingo.
The fire’fighters’ all across the country acted like they themselves died on 9/11 and managed to get city councils nationwide to grant them incredible ‘work’ rules, huge pay increases and insane benefits.
To quote Big O’s favorite preacher… ‘the chickens have come home to roost’… and the roost is … you will have to live and work like the rest of us. Less pay, more hours and greatly reduced benefits.
Or let the fires burn. Might be cheaper to do so.
Oh, I see no one will take those jobs without the pension. I thought it was’nt about the money it was about serving the people. You Sir are a GIGANTIC D-BAG..
I’m sure it will be the same as the “catastrophe” that happened when the air traffic controllers went on strike. I have no doubt that there are plenty of qualified and capable people in this state who would willingly accept the position at the current salary level with a reduced pension benefit! Most people employed in the private sector aren’t entitled to any pension so it would be an improvement for many of them.
If the pension benefit is what motivate a police officer or firefighter to do their job then I don’t want them on the job. A fat pension is not an appropriate motivation for public service. We need something more altruistic than that “stupid people”.
Finally, a blog in the OC register confirming that cop and firefighters are the major recipients and supporters of the bloated public pension system,
There are a lot of us retired cops, firefighters, teachers, and others out here who also vote with our wallets. On top of that, we give significant amounts of our hard-earned pension money to political causes and groups that support our interests. Fortunately for us, most of you who whine and gripe about public employee pensions are too lazy to do anything other than blog about it, and too cheap to actually kick in any of your own money to support your own cause. That’s why we’ll continue to win these contests.
Good luck this go. Your days are numbered. Broke people will vote with their pocket books.
Broke people are less likely to vote at all, and certainly won’t be making any significant dollar contributions to the groups who will actively oppose this initiative. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Skippy… you deserve what you won and you deserve what you’ll get… a BK’d city and state and NO BENES to you and yours.
Or would you prefer that you take all your neighbor’s homes and force them to live in a box under a bridge to support your lifestyle?
That sounds like a crime of a magnitude that even the folks on Capitol Hill in DC would be proud to live by.
SkippingDog says:
There are a lot of us retired cops, firefighters, teachers, and others out here who also vote with our wallets. On top of that, we give significant amounts of our hard-earned pension money to political causes and groups that support our interests. Fortunately for us, most of you who whine and gripe about public employee pensions are too lazy to do anything other than blog about it, and too cheap to actually kick in any of your own money to support your own cause. That’s why we’ll continue to win these contests.
====================
Errr…right Skippy-in fact that last election was a real winner for you and your money! (you know, the election where you clowns tried to raise the sales tax again and it got beat like an old donkey).
Actually, we’ve done very well in electing sympathetic officials at the local, state, and federal levels — including many judges and even the President of the United States. Since I’m already retired from my long and productive years of service to an often ungrateful public, I won’t be greeting anyone except the checkers at Wal-Mart. I promise to say hi to you and Myles though, and let you help take my bags to the car….
I am always happy to help out the aged.
Skip, learn how to say ” Welcome to Wal-Mart” or “Do you want fries with that” your gonna need a job again, and thats about all any of you are qualified for. Minimum wage for you..
Nice to see you and Johnny V. kanoodling together again. You guys make a pretty good comedy team; Johnny as the smart ass straight man and Myles as the dumb sidekick….:)
Skippy, I’m sure you were just as good as Phil Garridos parole officer, all that great detective work finding Jaycee Dugard in the back yard.
When you die your pension liability dies with you. You can keep it until then but we WILL reduce what new “public servants” get in terms of retirement benefits. Yes, there are many retired self-congratulating “servants” like yourself who really don’t care about the true value of the services you provided or placing an undue burden on those who labor to fund your entitlement.
Your statement is a perfect example of how warped and tainted public employees and their unions have become in their pursuit of more, more, more. In your corrupt and distorted view the public exists to serve YOU. You’ve lost sight and direction of the real purpose of government.
Notice that all the people who are part of this initiative can afford it. They don’t have to care about getting a pension. Well what about people who do? It is only the abusers who are making the news with their outrageous amounts and double-dipping. Most of the people are not getting huge pensions, just enough to live on if that. I know mine would not be enough right now in this economy. I wouldn’t be able to pay my rent and bills on it.
I’m a public employee, and I support this bill completely.
ssaworker –
I’ve read many of your posts and truly believe you to be a diligent, motivated, and compassionate public employee. Unfortunately, you are also misguided when it comes to your own interests. Nothing shameful or wrong about receiving a benefit you’ve worked for — and work for it you have, no matter what nonsense Johnny and Myles would have you believe.
I just don’t think that the taxpayers should be forced to pay for our retirements.
Fair pay, fair benefits and a fair shot at advancement. That’s all I need, and why should we get anything more than anyone else?
Two thumbs up for ssaworker!
Go ssaworker!
Wow, I don’t get any of this. What about the folks at AIG and other Wall Street type CEOs and their bloated bailouts, trillion-dollar severances, all paid for by you and I? And you are squawking about public employee pensions, which are paid into by employees? You would deny them a retirement that they paid in to? Sadly misguided people. The people this would hurt are the libarians, teachers, police dispatchers and others who don’t make a whole lot to begin with. They teach your children, look up books for them and dispatch a cop to your door after your house has been burglarized. Sick, sick, sick.
truthseeker,it is to much work and to hard to go after the people you speak of,instead they pick the easy fight and go after the poor public safety employees who are there 24/7 for them.i don’t get it either. your right sick,sick,sick…..
Wow … did I see that correctly ……
“poor” and “public safety workers” in the SAME sentence .
Whast a hoot ……
Tell me its not true …PLEASE.
I would encourage anyone who is interested to get the facts before you decide to support this ballot measure. Look at the figures available by PERS and you’ll see that less than 1% Percent of Police Officers actually “max out” on their retirements, that is, get the full 90% percent everyone is griping about. A majority leave before then; let’s face it, I don’t know too many people that want to or can push a patrol car around when they’re in their mid to late 50’s or older. In order to get a maximum retirement, a 21 year old (the youngest you can be employed as a sworn officer in CA) would have to work till they were at least 51 to get that benefit. Most officers start much later, meaning they can not retire with full benefits until later in life.
Also, considering you do make it to full retirement, most officers pay into their retirement monthly, and it takes approximately 7-10 years to exhaust that money before the PERS money actually kicks in. The average life expectancy of officers past retirement is about that amount of time due to a variety of issues including exposure to chemicals, toxins, pathogens, cancer issues, etc. The State is banking on this when it comes up with the formula, so when everyone is griping about retirements, they might want to consider some of the data that’s out there.
No-one seemed to be all that concerned when the stock market and industry were doing well and the private sector was getting great incentive/benefit packages. Times are tough for everyone, but lets try to think beyond emotions and consider the facts.
ocdisgusted says:
I would encourage anyone who is interested to get the facts before you decide to support this ballot measure. Look at the figures available by PERS and you’ll see that less than 1% Percent of Police Officers actually “max out” on their retirements, that is, get the full 90% percent everyone is griping about.
================
Pinnochio the cop, your nose just grew 40 feet with that whopper!
ocdisgusted says:
The average life expectancy of officers past retirement is about that amount of time due to a variety of issues including exposure to chemicals, toxins, pathogens, cancer issues, etc.
============================
Wow, we got this whooper lie TWICE in the SAME trhead! So I guess I will shoot it down TWICE;
Here is the CalPERS life expectancy data for public safety members (police and fire, which are grouped together by the pension fund):
• If the current age is 55, the retiree is expected to live to be 81.4 if male, and 85 if female.
• If the current age is 60, the retiree is expected to live to be age 82 if male, and 85.5 if female.
• If the current age is 65, the retiree is expected to live to be age 82.9 if male, and 86.1 if female.
In other words, police and fire officials have the identical life expectancies as non-safety officials. A 55 year old male cop is likely to live past 81, which is far more than a few years and it explains why pension liabilities are so costly for taxpayers.
http://weblog.signonsandiego.com/weblogs/afb/archives/035919.html
Ooh, ooh, look someone’s getting more than you, we must stop them. This will pass by a wide margin because most people are selfish and don’t want anyone to get anything more than they get. Get yours now, stop the other people. Pinky 22 is right, look at who is supporting it, THE WELL OFF who want even more. I wish they could rot in a special he** , but I don’t believe in it and they probably don’t either. Sure there will be plenty of police and fire applicants, will they be any good?
That’s just hilarious …. just think about it ….. a cop calling “other” people selfish.
Watch them start to threaten to slow down emergency response times. That’s coming next. The OCSD conducted a work slow-down at the jail while their contract was being negotiated a couple years ago. The judges, their staffs and the attorneys all confirmed it and were complaining. That stuff is outright extortion. Expect the same to happen here. These are legalized forms of public gangs. Give us what we want…..or else. I hope to gawd this makes the ballot. I will call Fritz’s office today and offer a donation. It’s time to let them know, once and for all, what the citizenry thinks of their pension heists and scams. As I predicted more than a year ago, the gravy train is coming to a screeching halt. It’s LONG, LONG overdue.
The OCSD conducted a work slow-down at the jail while their contract was being negotiated a couple years ago. The judges, their staffs and the attorneys all confirmed it and were complaining. That stuff is outright extortion. Expect the same to happen here. These are legalized forms of public gangs. Give us what we want…..or else.
———————————————————————————————–
You got that right! And We the People are fed up with being bullied around.
Instead of “We the people” don’t you mean …”me the A-Hole”
wheresthebeef says:
Regarding firefighters…you could cut the pay and benefits immensely and there would be no shortgage of people applying for the jobs.
======================================================
so how many times did you apply?
ntheoc says:
September 30, 2009 at 3:09 pmwheresthebeef says:
Regarding firefighters…you could cut the pay and benefits immensely and there would be no shortgage of people applying for the jobs.
======================================================
so how many times did you apply?
==================
I don’t think his Dad worked at the FD ntheoc, so he could not pull strings to get his son hired into the FD-like your Dad did to get YOU hired into the FD ntheoc!
I see that when you run out of logical arguments, you start name calling.
I would be willing to bet that if firefighter pay was cut 25% and the pension was readjusted to 1.5%@55, you would still get a flood of qualified applicants (having a GED or equivalent and being able to pass required drug test and physical fitness tests). You know it’s the truth…
wheresthebeef says:
“I see that when you run out of logical arguments, you start name calling.”
===========================================================
hey beef i did not call you anything,i just said you were ranting like a 2y/o. i was just being a little sarcastic with ya! i’m used to commenting on johnny blaze and thats how he likes it,hah. hey whats your beef with police and firefighters? you seem to attack public safety more than anything,even this initiative you support wants to exclude p.d and fire. honesltly,do you really think our pensions are the problem or cause of the slow economy. there are bigger factors and you know it’s the truth. i know there needs to be some type of change in our pension and i am against the double dipping some do!! you happy now.
I want to see an overhaul of the entire public pension system, I’m not just picking on public safety workers.
Even the CALPERS actuary said the system is unsustainable even for non-safety workers. The actuary knows 1000 times more about the fund than any of us…I would believe what he says. And he says there is no way this thing is sustainable. It will cost billions to fix this thing.
I can not believe have the attitude….that’s what is owed to me, so pay up. That is disgusting.
Quoting …”do you really think our pensions are the problem or cause of the slow economy”
No, but they (along with your excesssive pay and retiree healthcare benefits) are ABSOLUTELY the reason why the state will shortly be dead broke.
How many grocers tale IOU “script” permanently ?
If the stop taking it, will you shoot them ?
here is some of the initiatives language
-Our police, firefighters and other public safety employees, who risk their lives protecting us, deserve special consideration;
(A) The plan shall provide for full retirement ages of new employees
as follows:
(i) for a new employee retiring as a peace officer or firefighter, no less than 55 years of age.
hmmm close to how it is now.
(d) Existing public employees have a right to receive the retirement and other similar benefits that were promised them upon employment. Thus, this Act does not eliminate, limit or affect existing defined benefit pension plans, vested retiree health care plans, disability benefits, or death benefits for current public employees or retirees and their families;
=====================================================
this is what your trying to stick us with johnny blaze,hahhhh
You didnt have the 3%@50 when you were hired….now DID you!
Johnny Blaze, Ghost Rider says:
“You didnt have the 3%@50 when you were hired….now DID you!”
=======================================================
i sure did johnny boy!!!
Only if you were hired before 2001…….and if you were and the fund has been properly funded then you should get what was baragined for-but I will try to stop the 3%@50 for all new hires and ones who did not pay into it.
In this day of astronomical unemployment rates, giving a job to someone who is already receiving a good income is ridiculous. I have seen several jobs posted on web job posting boards for federal and state positions, but you have to already be employed by those agencies to apply for the job. I think those who are unemployed should be given first priority.
Hey everyone whose crying about what everyone else has as in pensions, retirements..By the way, if your hating over it has that much power over your feelings..A big suggestion, apply for the job OR a job that has those benefits..
People have worked towards retirement, thats right those who have worked, not on welfare, sucking the system, but legitimally working towards that..
Its not retirement pensions or Calpers destroying the system, its those handling the budget? Wow talk about a diversion to the real problem here…People apply for those jobs which give you those benefits!!! Like all the others who earned them did…Simple solution!!
Before some of you start telling those of us in these fields to look for work,think again.It would,if passed,only affect new hires.You’ll still be paying us for decades.Too bad you didn’t listen to your teachers and read with comprehension.
Many of these pension were retro actively gifted. They can be retro actively “ungifted.”
That is all.
The Orange County BOS already tried that, with the Sheriff’s Association. They were spanked not once but twice. Sure ,they are going to appeal Judge Bendix’s decision, but the result will be the same. Valid contracts can not be discarded, because one party decides at a later time, that they got screwed.
So you’re admitting you “screwed” you employer (the TAXPAYERS) ?
Are you proud of that ?
Do you tell your kids, your mother, you pastor how proud you are ?
As long as there are any government assets or an entity with the power to collect taxes, every existing pension will be paid. Some people won’t be happy about that, but it’s all part of the deal.
Sounds like you want the tax collectors to go door to door and collect your pension at gun point if the fund runs dry.
Actually there is one thing that could make all these pensions pay pennies on the dollar…and that is BK for the state of California. It’s happened before in the private sector. California pension IOUs won’t be worth the paper they are printed on.
HAH. You are in for the fricken surprise of your life. That big ‘ol train is rollin’ down the tracks and you are going to get caught like a deer in the headlights. Sooner or later you are going to see hyperinflation in this country that will knock your socks off. Your pension won’t be worth a plug nickle. You’ll be standing in the soup lines along with everyone else! hah. But keep thinkin’ you get what’s comin’ to ya. You sure will. It just won’t be your fat pension. That’s all! hah!
SkippingDog says:
September 30, 2009 at 8:40 pmAs long as there are any government assets or an entity with the power to collect taxes, every existing pension will be paid
=================================
Skippy-have you been in hibernation during the Vallejo BK case???….that is flat out WRONG.
The muni has no duty to raise taxes to fund Cadillac pensions, the muni is exempt from selling any real or personal property to fund Cadillac pensions-so that argument is also finished.
The ONLY question in a muni BK is CASH FLOW-does current income meet expenses-if not then the muni qualifies for BK and the pensions can be cut.
If that is your argument to keep your gold plated gravy train running, well, I feel sorry for you.
If hyperinflation comes, it won’t be because of CalPERS of any government employee pension plan. You are correct, though, that hyperinflation will affect everyone. That’s why it won’t be allowed to happen. The rich folks who control most of our commerce and government won’t allow their assets to be hyperinflated away. The FED will raise interest rates as high as necessary to wring inflation out of our economy, just like they did during the early years of Reaganomics.
CalPERS is a state sponsored agency, and states can’t declare bankruptcy under our federal law. If PERS has a structural shortfall, it will have to be made up from tax receipts and the sale of state assets for people, like me, who are already collecting their pensions. There will probably be multiple tiers implemented for current and future active workers, so the shortfall will eventually end. Once the economy cycles back - as it always does - those in the reduced tiers will press to have their pension formulas improved to match earlier retirees. Kind of like the big circle of life….
“That’s why it won’t be allowed to happen. The rich folks who control most of our commerce and government won’t allow their assets to be hyperinflated away”
At least you acknowledge the insidious corruption present throughout our system.
But there’s nothing the rich can do to stop hyperinflation. Wait until Israel attacks Iran (inevitable). Oil will shoot through the roof. $200 or more a barrel. It will take down the dollar and hyperinflation will soar. Our current debt to GDP percentage is over 350%. All china has to do is dump the $trillions$ of dollars they hold in US treasuries and you’re a cooked goose, my friend. And it will happen eventually. Either gradually through increased US government deficits and monetization, or by a single event, like an attack on Iran or a terrorist event. So you keep working that gobblement job of yours and keep that entitlement attitude of ‘I got what’s coming to me’. hah. Yep. You’re absolutely right. Just beware of what you wish for! hah!
It’s only Wiki, but I think it provides some valuable information for you about how we compare to others. One other question: If China decides to “dump” US treasury debt, who’s going to buy it?
“While the U.S. national debt is the world’s largest in absolute size, another measure is its size relative to the nation’s GDP. As of January 20, 2009, the debt was 73 percent of GDP, a level not seen in the U.S. since 1955 when the country was recovering from World War II. [54] This debt is still less than the debt of other industrialized nations such as Japan and roughly equivalent to those of several western European nations.”
Skipping, your 73% figure only accounts for FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DEBT not the NATIONAL debt which includes public and private. You’re a day late and a dollar short. When you size up NATONAL DEBT against GDP it is over 350%. National debt has surpassed $53 billion. Do the math. ALL debt matters. Not just public. Somebody has to pay it for force it to default. But good luck with that pension entitlement that ‘you got comin’ to ya’. hah.
We’ll only be paying bloated benefits for those currently in the system until death which is inevitable for all…just like taxes. We’ll have cost reductions for everybody else as well as provisions that prohibit double dipping.
No profession or career should entitle anyone to receive 75% of more of their final salary for the rest of their life after only 30 years of service.
I appreciate *most* public employees and *most* of the services they perform and think a fair pension system is a legitimate benefit. What exists today was manufactured by politicians and public employee labor unions to be so one-sided as to be unfair to taxpayers.
A defined contribution retirement plan similar to what the majority of private sector workers receive is fair and requires the participation of the recipient.
Its just the beginning … FOR SURE !
Next up …. BIG-TIME pension reductions for future years of service for CURRENT employees.
Where’s the beef—-Not with this initiative they can’t.
Well, I’m relieved to know, that Iam going to live to 81 years. If I had known I was going to live that long, I would’ve taken better care of myself.
Likewise, Compadre — If nothing else just to regularly poke at Johnny and Myles and OCO to get their blood pressure spiked up….
May you have many years of pension comfort!
Hey, you made the bogus claim you will die 3 days after “RETIRING”, not me-I just shot the lie down.
“Reducing benefits and hiking retirement ages for new hires would save $500 billion over 30 years, backers say.”
This is an error. It should be revised as: “Reducing benefits and hiking retirement ages for new hires would rob them $500 billion over 30 years, backers say.”
Lu,
You have to own property to be robbed of it. Robbery is when the government uses its taxing power to take what other labor to rightfully earn and then use it to fund exhorbitant public employee pensions. The proposed change will allow taxpayers to keep $500B of the property over the next 30 years instead of redistributing it to public employee welfare…errr…. pensions.
No, it should say …
“Reducing benefits and hiking retirement ages for new hires and CURRENT employees would save $2 Trillion over 30 years, backers say.”
I’m not going to debate the pension issue with this gaggle of opportunistic swarming zealots. And Terry, you know you are engaged in lazy, tabloid Fox News-style non-journalism. You make multiple assertions and state numerous conclusions that are either questionable or just plain false. Disgusting. What I would like to know is where is the outrage of the so-called “protectors of the public treasury” that would generate a ballot issue to limit private sector executive looting of public funds, or where is your ballot issue to rein in the absurd rip-off that the insurance industry has become, or your ballot issue to transform banks into something other than legalized thieves? None of you will get all excited about that kind of legitimate reform because you’re too obsessed with exorcising your own bogeymen, too unwilling to confront the pariah that a plutocracy is, and too smug in your own misplaced hate and envy.
You are absolutely right about the public heists at the hands of the corporate pigs. No doubt about it. But you are simply the other side of the same coin. The pot and kettle, if you will. So pointing to the other guy to distract us from your thievery will not work. Clean up your own backyard, my friend. Then you can complain about your neighbor’s. Personally, I am watching both of you closely. Neither possess characters that can be trusted.
Lostinspace:
Now, say that with a deep Scotch-Irish Accent and I think you got it!
We’ll get to them, but the parasitic greed of public employees is priority #1 !
Just wait, first they’ll go after CALPERS, doing everything they can to break the unions that ensure workers in California get a decent wage and benefits. Then those same rich parasites who write up these ballots will go after Social Security and *everyone* will be out of luck. But at least the super wealthy won’t have to pay so much for taxes.
Welcome to the brave new world of the small minority consisting of the super wealthy upperclass who control 95% of the wealth, and the vast majority of the rest of us who will be nothing more than wage slave peasants. Look at Mexico to see what awaits us. I bet the taxes are really low there.
lostinspace….Well put, but don’t expect the”investigative reporters” at OCR to bother themselves with the issues you mention. It is so much easier to fight windmills than dragons.
Lost in space,
You are right it is a plutocracy. It is just that the public sector has effectively been bribed to go along with it. This is an effort to take our government back from the plutocrats. This is only the first in many steps to do that. Once you guys, the public servants, are brought into parity with the private sector, then maybe you will realize who the real criminals are.
these concerned citizens have nothing else to do but complan about people who put their lives on the line for them. How about the huge cost, and rising, of educating and providing health care for illegals. Think of the huge tax loss of all the day workers these liberals are hiring to do the work they are too lazy to do.
Do you really think that security guards at the Bower’s Museum are putting “their lives on the line”? That is such a crock of bull doody! There are teachers in LAUSD that have come closer to death than public safety workers in most parts of the state.
heck, 7-eleven clerks making $9/hr are in much more danger than OC public safety employees. The danger factor don’t float. All who have examined this issue understand that, whether they admit it or not.
So Obs, name me one 7-11 clerk killed in Orange County. There may have been one, so I’m sure you can name him. Meanwhile, I can name one law enforcement officer in OC killed in ambush at a 7-11, a personal friend of 10 years. If you can’t put, shut up ! BTW, “retail clerks didn’t even make the list of “most dangerous jobs” you always refer to. Cops were number 8.
Oldski, Suresh Dass who worked at an Irvine 7-Eleven was murdered by 2 punks. And let’s not limit this to 7-Elevens. What about the other convenience stores throughout the OC? Many have been murdered, pistol whipped, got a gun barrel stuck in their face, etc… Still, they make $9/hr. So why should danger be a factor in a cop’s salary if the danger factor doesn’t count with anyone else outside public safety? You are like one of these Obama fan clowns who justify everything he does. But your forte happens to be public salaries and pensions since you happen to be a professional trough feeder. Same church, different pew.
The security officers at Bowers Museum, a private institution ( and I love the place , go every couple years during daylight hours), are not police officers and are not relevent to this discussion. Pay attention, just as I ass u me you pay taxes.
More diversion … your overpaid & overbenefitted … PERIOD. Give it up.
Hey, Pal, just responding to the false claims made by you compatriots here. They made the statements, where is the diversion ? So far you have indignation, that is you are “fed up”. Now, learn to articulate that indignation without echoing others and get back to me .
Whoever dreamed up 3% per year after 30 years of employment should be shot. Think about it..you get a job as a Police Officer, Firefighter, or Prison Guard at 22, you retire when you are 52, and you get a retirement check for 90% of your salary for the rest of your life…it is more lucrative for those folks to retire than to continue working- I would guess that most people’s expenses for commuting and lunches are at least 10%..what a deal!
It’s a crime… even Federal workers are looking at around 30% after 30 years.
These deals were negotiated with union (city paid) negotiators with other city unions and not a single taxpayer represented. This is taxation without representation and would be outlawed except the judges and DAs who review the program all have the same program.
State and local pensions are what will sink us all… unless we revolt and say f*** it to paying property taxes… and the day may come.
When you factor in the annual COLA (that Civil Servant pensions, but NOT Private sector pensions provide), it is more like a level (non-COLA) 140% of final pay.
Yup … on an apples-to-apple comparison with Private Sector workers (who do not get pensions with COLAS), the a 30-year cop’s pension is equivalent to 140% of final pay !
This is NOT incorrect … check with one of the actuaries that comment periodically.
I value our public employees, but it is unreasonable to burden the taxpayers with overly generous pensions and benefits. This has really gotten out ot hand and it will not work. I’m ready to support this initiative. OCR, keep up the good work with stories about this issue.
This iniative (which only address reductions for NEW employees) won’t save a dime for 20-30 years (until they begin to retire).
To stop the bleeding we need to reduce the pensions for future years of service for CURRENT employees.
These reductions a REGULARLY done in Private Sector plans, and Civil Servants are NOT “special”.
And don’t accept the bull “that they can’t be reduced”. The law is NOT CLEAR as to UNACCRUED benefits. We need to get this addressed in the FEDERAL courts, not in STATE courts where the judges are ALSO participants in the SAME Plans and won’t want to reduce their OWN benefits.
0 won’t save a dime for 20-30 years (until they begin to retire). We must DEMAND pension reduction for CURERENT employees for all future years of service.
This is the ONLY way to stop the bleeding !
Just saw Capt. Sullenberger, from US Air Hudson river miracle, I think most would be surprised to here that he makes less than your average OC public safety worker after nearly 30 years of service. And his small DB retirement was lost in Bankruptcy.
It really is about fairness.
runthenumbers says:
Just saw Capt. Sullenberger, from US Air Hudson river miracle, I think most would be surprised to here that he makes less than your average OC public safety worker after nearly 30 years of service. And his small DB retirement was lost in Bankruptcy.
It really is about fairness.
========================
It sure is about fairness.
Sully had a $100K DB pension plan (at age 60 I might add, not age 50), and when AA field BK the PBGC took over their pension plan, and the MOST anyone gets from the PBGC is $54K per year-at age 65-so Sully cannot even get the $54K until he hits age 65.
Hey there California: (writing from Canada)
This is just the beginning of many such fights. While I respect public servants (I am one, a university instructor), you should realize that few of these generous pensions are anywhere near fully funded. That is, there was not enough money put away, such that after compounding at market rates, there is a lump sitting there now to cover the present value (value now of future payments) of what was promised.
This is a core issue with social security for you in the US, our equivalent CPP, and practically all private plans as well. The car companies, government plans, teachers, civic, states, everybody, essentially…
Thus, when a current retiree says they and their employer paid for what they are now receiving, they are dead wrong. Obviously the underfunding is greater in some of these ridiculous 80-90% cases, but even more modest plans are reliant on taking money from younger workers, or the employer, now to pay current pensions.
One obvious way to fix this is to look back at the contribution history for each worker, calculate their current lump sum amount owned, and then base their pension from this day onward on that amount. Why should a 40-year old pay in to cover the excessive pension of someone 65 or 80? Their money should go towards their own future pension.
I would implement such cuts now, subject however to rules that protect those at the bottom of the income scale. The higher up you go, the more your pension would be cut….(That is fair anyway, because that is where the “never funded” problem is larger!) Below, say, $25k/year, no cuts; from $25 to $50k, a partial version of the above calculated cut, and above $50k, do the exact calc. and pay only that estimated amount.
The “sacred pension” idea derives of course from the belief that “I (and my employer) paid for it and it belongs to me.” That is perfectly true, with respect to (WHATEVER WAS ACTUALLY PUT AWAY + interest accumulated). But when it was just a promise, not real money set aside, then tell me why I should pay more to cover somebody else’s promise. “I’ll pay you $32/hour now, in total, and the equivalent of another $3 when you retire.” NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY.
Current retirees will go bananas, of course, because they honestly believe (or most do), that they and their employers really did pay in enough to cover what was promised to them. But, I say with all due respect, they are wrong. Young families should not struggle, with high income tax and payroll tax, and weak social safety nets, while retirees take out more than they ever paid in.
The retirees will say, “well, mathematically you may be right, but I was promised $XX/year, so I should get it.” Well, sorry to say, you were lied to, or at least not told the truth about the lack of funding. I reiterate that the rest of society, especially younger workers, should not have to cough up payroll and other taxes just to give more to you.
Our Canadian federal government, for example, has indirectly steered money into the General Motors of Canada pension plan, in a recent deal that staved off bankruptcy. Why my tax dollars should pay the unfunded (but promised!) pension of autoworkers who make more than me, I will never understand.
I want to repeat that I have a lot of respect for police, firefighters, nurses, and all civil servants, etc. But that does not justify these giant, involuntary transfers of money across generations.
Final note - it would also be very helpful to the macroeconomy to move spending power from those who are (relatively) loaded, and put (or leave!) dollars in the hands of those who will spend them.
Scott Beesley Economics Instructor University of Alberta
P.S. the reference to really understand to vast scope of this (and the similarly enormous unfunded medical liability!!) is Professor Kotlikoff, in The Coming Generational Storm…
Thank you for your canadian perspective on pension benefits, Professor Beesley. Please share your viewpoints more often at the OCR. I would love to hear your opinion on healthcare reform in America. Many here trash the canadian healthcare system out of pure ignorance. It would he helpful for a man of your education to set them straight. The propoganda here in the lower 48 is overwhelming at times. The corporations control everything….media, money and our politicians. It’s quite alarming.
You mentioned the UAW bailout in Canada. I can’t imagine that the canadian elected officials could be any deeper in the union’s pockets than the american politicians. Is that a big problem in your country?? Are your politicians bought off too?? It seems that the canadian people would be far too wise to allow that to happen. Here in america the same crooks keep getting elected over and over again. Americans aren’t very good when it comes to learning curves. Please give us your perspective on this.
The public servants in California have become our public masters. Higher salaries (for comparable skill sets), massive defined pensions when our private work force struggles with eroding 401-k’s, better benefits (17 paid holidays in addition to generous vacation time, a host of healthcare options) and, of course, bullet proof job security. We have a 12.2% reported unemployment rate in California (although we know it’s much higher than that) and 99% of those who lost their jobs come from the private sector. Few, if any, public employees have lost their jobs. In fact, they have added government jobs in the last year! hah! So the public sector workers have all bases covered. The best of everything. Treated like royalty. How does that compare with Canada’s employment system? Please comment.
Please, offer your viewpoints more often. Very enlightening.
So, what happened to the petition drive the last time? Reporter did not say. I can only assume it failed miserably. It will probably do better this time. Hey, just tell us what the rules are, we’ll play by them.
Obs, quit humpimg the professor’s leg, you’re embarrassing the rest of us.
Typical comment that I would expect from a professional trough feeder. I guess ‘humping the professor’s leg’ beats urinating on the hand that feeds you. If this goes to ballot it’s only the beginning. The wicked witch is about to get a pail full of water dumped on her. You saw the 75% majority vote on Measure J in Orange County on Nov 4, 2008, right sport? That should have been your first warning. You folks are slow learners.
The professor did a good job of explaining the more common elements of the problematic systems, and in terms even I could understand. Of course, he would not know (paragraph four) that OCER system for one does vary the employee/employer contributions as to age of the memeber, or (paragraph 5) that the rates vary by the level of employment, i.e. safety, management, supervision, profession, etc. The only real oversight on his part was failiure to state the essential difference between Social Security (a pure Ponzi scheme from day one), and apparently the Canadian version as well, and the public employer-sponsored plans in question here: the public employer systems are based on contributions AND investment, and are trusts, whereas Soc.Sec. has no secure fund to invest, the federals “borrow” it for other programs. SS is a pyramid scheme, based on the continuous need for more and more working contributers to pay the benefits of the retired. Just like Bernie Madoff. Of course retirees get back more than they paid in, that’s the whole idea. And note, the professor does include ALL retirement programs in that criticism. If people depending on SS got back only what they paid in, they not be getting anything like $1000 a month, more like $100. And Obs, you’re letting me off too easy, without the usual “thief” accusations. You alright?
Hey you two-stop acting like 3rd graders……..
come on down to the second grade level with me
Johnny, you will always be a sophomore in my eyes. BTW, I agree 120+% with the anti-double-dip provision. Nothing ever frosted my wheaties more than some county executive retiring at nearly full pay on Friday, and returning to work in the same executive position on Monday at another full pay as a “contract employee”. My motto, ” If your tired, RETIRE. If your not, DON’T RETIRE” !
You know what frost my eyes …. Yeah, on average one cop in ten get a bullet fired at them once in a career (unfortunately, it comes with the territory), but for the other 99.99% of the time ……
I’ve never seen so many, get paid so much, for doing so little.
The bigger concern should be WHY so many different groups get safety retirement and they are NOT safety employees. Cut them out and then look at the numbers BEFORE going across the board cuts.
I have worked in local government for around 10 years now. I don’t work in public safety..but I do work to make sure that the safety of the public is protected. I have a professional degree and will soon complete my masters. Most of the jobs that pay a decent wage in government require advanced degrees…and trust me these jobs are not that easy to get.
Some of the things that are missed in the discussion is the differences between many of the public sector jobs and the private sector.
Those with some level of education and a good head on their shoulders take on these jobs because they do want to “serve” the public. From my experience with the people I have worked with, they want to work to improve the community they work in and make life better for the residents in any way possible. That being said, they want to be fairly compensated for it.
I agree that the pensions are generous, there are many support staff that do not have advanced degrees that do much better than those that work in the private sector in the long run. However, those of us with a decent education could make a much better living working in the private sector, receive bonuses, profit sharing, overtime pay, frequent raises, etc….this of course only happens during the “good” years. Now that times are tough, it is easy to go after those that have good pensions.
Working in government is a slow and steady climb, most will retire with a top salary under 80K. The top salary you could hope for would be that of a City Manager and most of them make under 150K a year.
The ability to move up in government is difficult at best, you can only move up when positions open or you move on to another agency. Raises are very structured and there are caps for every job classification. What this means is that after around 4 years of working at any classification, you will no longer receive a raise, unless a cost of living increase is given.
I agree that there are problems in the system, maybe a tiered system makes sense, or some caps on the max benefit (2.5% @ 55) or something to that affect.
What I fear is the following
You may end up with a system where individuals will not leave the agency they work for, resulting in jaded employees who care less and less about the citizens they serve.
The most qualified employees will leave for the private sector since the security of a good pension will no longer be guaranteed.
Agencies will work to push out the older employees with the most experience, expertise and institutional knowledge for cheaper, less skilled employees.
In the long term you will end up with a lesser quality employee do to the ability to make much better salaries elsewhere.
I believe the likely result will be agencies that will need to increase salaries and benefit packages (i.e. 457 contributions, benefit banks, etc.) to stay competitive with the private sector…so the cost to the tax payers may likely be greater upfront.
Also, I noticed that this initiative is not listed on the Secretary of State website as a ballot measure that is out for signature or being reviewed by the AG’s office.
Actualy, Fed Up, it’s probably less than 1 in a hundred, thank God. Wow, you are really passionate in your envy! Well, it’s a free country, go ahead and ruminate about my pension if it makes you feel better to think someone may lose something you don’t have. Have a nice day.
Its not envy, its disgust at how greedy Civil Servants, encouraged by their unions and enabled by self-serving politicians have been and continue to financially rape taxpayers.
The fact is you obsess about how dangerous a cop’s job is and why that should be a factor in their pay and pensions. When we confront you with the facts and you’ve been owned all you got left is ‘eat your heart out. I got mine and you don’t’. hah. It just points out how disingenuous and biased you truly are. That’s why few take what you say seriously.
For someone (you) who spends 24/7 on these blogs, you’re the one who obsesses.
Pashionate … yes, I am, because those with much less should NOT be supporting Civil Servants who can & do retire 10-20 years before they can.
Change is at your doorstep ……..
Obs, check your facts. I have never mentioned the dangers of law enforcement unless responding to one of your specious and insulting claims about what a tough life convenience clerks and crab fishermen have., Nor have I ever said ” eat your heart out I got mine” or anything like that. I f I comment about that at all, it’s to say “Thank You, I’m grateful”. Of course I am biased, DUH! I have a direct, personal interest. As for whether or how many take me seriously, so what. At least I don’t get all those “raving” notices you get. As for you confronting me with facts, yes, sometimes you do. However, usually you have only the facts from one point of view and ignore any facts supporting a differing view. That’s what I offer. Have a nice day.
More ……..
And that Change is reduced pensions for new employees
Reduced Pensions for Current employees (if need be by Constitutional amendment)
And quite likely, reduced pensions for current & future retirees … when the money is gone, its gone
You folks really need to just ditch that loser of a state and find greener pastures. If the tax burden is too much, take off. Let those who remain figure out what to do with what is left (if anything). Folks braggin about how they’ve got you over a barrel have a point. They’ve got you by the short and curleys so long as you claim “sunshine state citizenship”. Big diff is that you can take your money and leave. They’re stuck with what they can squeeze out of who ever is left.