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Church and state collide at this polling place
November 4th, 2008, 12:01 pm · 50 Comments · posted by Teri Sforza, Register staff writer
From our reporters Jessica Turrell and Sam Miller:
Voters in Westminster’s Precinct 003941 perform their civic duty today at the Christian Reform Church of Orange County on Magnolia Street.
Greeting them is a phalanx of “Yes on 8″ signs - a veritable fence, actually - with that gleeful traditional family throwing its arms in the air in elation.
The plain and sober “VOTE” sign, denoting an official polling place, is at the end of said phalanx. (Our reporter, Jessica Terrell, took these photos.)
It struck even some Yes on 8 supporters - who’d like a ban on gay marriage - as odd, “It’s a little excessive. I don’t know what
they were trying to prove with all those signs. I don’t think there was a need for them,” said a voter who declined to give her name.
Are those signs OK? We asked the Orange County Registrar of Voters.
Yes, they are, so long as the signs are at least 100 feet from the entrance to the poll site, said Brett Rowley, Registrar spokesman (who sounded a wee bit harried).
The entrance to the polling place was around the back of the church, and the signs were along the street in front of the church, so all appears well.
But at least one other church chose not to wear its heart on its sleeve. At Sea Coast Grace Church in Cypress, staffers removed Prop. 8 signs this morning. “We wanted our campus to be a neutral environment for people not to be hassled,” said Cody Surratt, 
a pastor.
Prop. 8, obviously, elicits a great deal of passion. Longtime Republican activist Kenneth Fisher reports that about 10 Yes on 8 signs that sprouted at the corner of Bixby and Brookhurst in Garden Grove were destroyed overnight.
Reports of vandalized signs have been furiously reported by both sides. Honestly. Can’t we all just get along?
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When prop 8 fails are these losers going to come and pickup all these signs? I wonder how many people voted NO on 8 simply because of the amount of garbage and waste these signs created. Hopefully they get dumped back in the church where they were born.
Maybe all those wonderful people who decided to vandelize personal property just for having their sign up. I honestly have not heard of any vandelizim of the No on 8 signs or the spray paiting vandelizim of property that the yes on 8 people have had to endur.
I give the pastor in the story above a lot of credit to want to make a polling place a neutral environment, too bad the No on 8 people can’t show the same respect to personal property.
I do think that there should be no signs at the polling places though, not right!!!
The only garbage and waste are the people opposed to Prop. 8.
YES ON PROP 8!!!
When Prop 8 PASSES, which corrects the role of the judicial branch of the government to interpret laws, and NOT act as the legislature in creating laws, by reversing the erroneous action of the California Supreme Court, and solidifies the Constitution of this state by maintaining the moral definition of marriage, perhaps you will learn to make ethical and legal judgments based on morality rather than emotional tantrums resonant of the element of this society whose beliefs and actions are so morally lacking that they no longer know right from wrong, and by that, argue that there is no right or wrong.
Not taking sides here but I’ve seen just as many NO signs and half hand made and very poorly at that. I hope EVERYONE cleans up their signs. As much as I wanted to vote yes, it just didn’t feel right and at the last minute had to vote NO.
Where do you draw the line for marriage? if the Gay lifestyle is okay than all of the crazy perverse lifestyles should be okay? Is it okay if a Uncle marry’s his niece? What about 3 men and a dog? Do you see the absurdity? VOTE YES ON 8!!!!
The No on 8 voters are so FULL OF Hate. They vandalize and try to intimdiate and destroy personal property. They are getting in the way of civil liberties!
Vote Yes on 8!
no on Prop H8TE!
If Prop 8 passes I hope the gay community riots in the streets no justice! !no peace!
Walking in Each Other’s Shoes
In the wake of all of the political jockeying, advertisements, mailers, phone calls, rallies and the like both for and against Proposition 8 I am left wondering how many people truly took the time to try to walk in someone else’s shoes. I can offer only one truth…my perspective…which is my truth. However, I can tell you that this perspective comes with all of the introspection, praying (yes I did say praying), soul searching and research that 33 years of life can offer. To those of you who so fervently defend the Proposition, I offer you this:
Have you ever asked yourself why someone would want to be gay? Many assume that this is a choice and gay people can simply chose to not be that way or live a life of abstinence. I ask you to pause for a moment and ponder what it would feel like to know that no matter how hard you try or what you accomplish with your life, you will always be different and will always somehow be less than. To know that in the greatest moment of accomplishment of your life, there will always be those who judge you not for who you are and what you have done, but who you love. Can you begin to imagine what it might feel like to live in the shadow of something like that. Why would anyone chose that?
I can say without hesitation that I have taken pause to try and walk in your shoes. I have thought of what it would feel like to know that the core of my being, my faith and my religion, tell me that allowing gays to marry is wrong. It rattles your core because one of the basic fundamentals is being questioned and without those basic building blocks that form the foundation of your religion you may be lost. But does allowing two people who care about each other to financially support one another through the benefits provided under the legal (not religious) definition of marriage affect your faith?
The definition of faith is to believe in that which you cannot see. You believe that your particular religion is the “one”; thereby implying that perhaps all religions that are not yours are not the “one”. You also believe that your particular religion has made the right translation and interpretation of the bible. These things are all based on faith. Having been raised and schooled Lutheran I have the benefit of having studied the Bible (NIV) and know first hand that much of the bible is subject to translation and then interpretation. The most simplistic example of this that I can reference is as follows:
The book of Leviticus clearly states that man shall not eat animals with cloven hoofs. However, as time has passed and man has “progressed” the interpretation of this has changed and a large percentage of men freely eat pig. Man has chose to change his interpretation of the bible scriptures to suit his own needs, wants and desires. It is incredibly disheartening to know how many organized groups have in the “name of God” taken up the battle to support Proposition 8, based on their interpretation of the Bible.
I pray that you will understand that my life in no way hurts you or harms anything about you, your family or your faith. I am not suggesting that you change those things or even agree with what I am saying, but understand that what you are supporting hurts me personally. You have taken away my ability to financially take care of my family. Marriage is not the issue, it’s about equality and I believe that is a basic right and privilege of living in this country.
You are concerned that gay marriage will be taught in school but I ask you to consider what you are teaching your children now about love, tolerance and simply being different. You must have explained to your child in some form what that yellow and blue sign in your yard means. You are teaching your child that different is bad. So the other kids in your child’s school who happen to come from divorced parents, deceased parents, or gay parents are also less than.
Judge not, lest the be judged. I can tell you that my God is a loving and just God and he made me the way I am for a reason. I will continue to live my life as a good, fair, moral, productive and spiritual member of society.
AND THE YES ON H8TERS ARE JUST AS BAD, GREENDAYOC1! LIVE AND LET LIVE!
NO ON 8! NO ON 8! NO ON 8! NO ON 8! NO ON 8! NO ON 8! NO ON 8! NO ON 8! NO ON 8! NO ON 8! NO ON 8! NO ON 8! NO ON 8! NO ON 8! NO ON 8! NO ON 8!
I believe in the separation of church and state. Most anything that the religious right is FOR, I am AGAINST. I am not gay, and I have a husband and child. I believe that chruches shouldn’t even be an option as a polling place!
“100 feet from the entrance to the poll site”
The entrance is where I drive my car into the parking lot.
Once my car is on the property of the voting place I do not want to see campaigning.
Keep it 100 feet away from the entrance not the door.
I filed a complaint a few years ago against a school that had a banner on the campus promoting a measure. It was removed. I voted the way the school was hoping people would vote; however, the entrance to the voting place was behind me when I pulled my car in the driveway.
The entrance to the property is where that 100 feet is defined. It prevents campaign people from blocking the driveway and creates a welcoming place to vote.
It is not the cloth that is behind me when I vote. People need to back away from the voting places.
“Honestly. Can’t we all just get along?”
Of course we can. the yes on 8 people can realize they DO NOT get to walk across the street to their neighbor’s house, hold up their religious text and proclaim when their neighbor answers that they will follow all thier religious beliefs because they have a lot of friends that agree with them. They can realize gay people HAVE RELIGIOUS VIEWS OF THEIR OWN. They can realize every person goes to the word “marriage” with their own definition of what that entails, and no one religion or group of religions OWNS the word.
Sure, then we can get along. Because the no on 8 people DON’T WANT ANYTHING TO DO with the yes on 8 people. They just want them to leave them alone so they can get on with their lives, believing or not believing in religious views FOR THEMSELVES instead of having the views of others crammed at them by the petition process.
Think about this—someone you REALLY don’t like and think is an idiot. Do you think it’s OK for THEM to get to decide what you will do with your future or what your religious beliefs are?????? Think of a smelly bum in the street that spits out hate and lives in a bottle. It’s sad yes, but should THEY decide your future?
Yes on 8 people, get out of other’s lives. Live your own. Teach your children what you think about Homosexuals. But stop telling everyone else to live YOUR WAY because that’s what makes you comfortable.
You can’t point to any one thing that allowing these people to be married will actually tangibily DO to your religious views, your marriage, or anything. All you can do is come up will obviously foolish ideas like people marrying animals or minors (both can not give consent).
So sure, the no on 8 people are incited right now, they should be since the yes on 8 crowd is trying to dictate their futures to them!!!
NO ON 8. Be an honest and fair person that thinks about EVERYONE not just you and those exactly like you!!!!
Leave traditional marriage alone. You have no right to force these alternative lifestyles in the schools and churches. Marriage is under attack. This is a right and wrong issue. I am proud to stand in defense of the liberal agenda
I want my civil rights, I want to marry my daughter. Its my right. Your discriminating against me. Come on people-this is a no brainer
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO on 8…ALL THE WAY!!!!
Wow, the no on 8 people spend a lot of time talking about hate towards them, yet they seem to be the ones hating. No matter what you believe, religous, evolutionist, whatever, it does not matter. The bottom line is that humans where not created to be with the same sex. It goes against everything that is right about our make up. If opposite sexes were not created this earth we live on would cease to exist. SIMPLE AS THAT.
Yes on 8
Be fair to everyone, Live and let live? Liberal doubletalk.
Also, to correct the liberals who reinterperate the constitution every time they read it, for their specific cause at that time, the seperation of church and state does NOT mean in any way shape or form that the morality of church is to have no part in the foundations and functions of the government in which it resides. The PURPOSE of this statement is to dissallow the head of the government from also being the head of the church. This is a direct comment on the Monarchy of Britain, in which King Henry VIII was denied a divorce by the catholic church of england, and in so doing, he removed the catholic church from England, and setup the Anglican Church of England, and placed himself at the head of this church. This is the cause of the seperation of Church and State in the United States Constitution. The framers of the Constitution did NOT setup the United States as an atheistic government, they simply placed another balance of power at the heart of our laws. Did you know that churches were the main places that news was spread to the people of the thirteen colonies during the revolutionary war? Did you know that each session of Congress starts off with a prayer, and that the President is sworn in on the Bible? The Bible is as steadfast and important in this day as it was to the framers of the Constitution. The balance of church and state in this Christian nation, is one of the factors of its greatness.
Tell you what, if you dont like it, read the back of your money and give it all away, since its so “subjugating” to you.
Homosexuality is a sinful and invalid lifestyle choice, no one is born gay. Lest we need legislation that rewards sinful lifestyles. Its bad enough we give clean needles to IV drug users, and welfare to those who chose NOT to work. Yet, the hard working, bible-abiding, middle class taxpayer is hit the hardest by government excess, and has perverted, oppressive, and immoral laws and statutes inflicted on them.
Whats next, are they going to make prostitution legal? Oh wait, the twin gay cities of Sanfransodom and Berkgamora are trying to pull that one off too.
Open your eyes people before its too late.
Amen to that Matt
I hope that all of you Prop 8 supports have gay children, especially Matt.
We should bring back REAL TRADITIONAL BIBLICAL MARRIAGES too and allow polygamy too
Where does the bible say polygamy is wrong?
Your being hateful.I want my civil rights, i want to marry my daughter. Fine I will just have to redifine marriage. Who are you to tell me we can’t do this. My daughter is 18 and she wants the same. Give us our civil rights. People hello this is why marriage can’t be redefined
I hear people stating that there needs to be separation of church and state. However, has anyone ever read the document by Thomas Jefferson? It is not in the bill of rights, but found in a letter written to the baptists. Jefferson was explaining that God was the center point in all his thoughts, (obviously if one ever read the declaration of independence. where he cites that our rights are given by a creator) Jefferson, makes the statement as to the government has to have moral absolutes, and that the Government should never interfere with the church and the free practice thereof! So lets not get confused here, the separation is to PROTECT the church, not to protect the government from the church. Our founding fathers were very religious and relied on those beliefs.
I don’t understand why we use churches as polling places anyway. That seems to go against the separation of church and state. I think that we should all vote at civic spaces and public school with no campaigning allowed anywhere on the property.
Introspection:
People “choose” all sorts of illegal behaviors.
I’m amazed anyone would still put forth that old argument about marrying animals or children. They can’t give informed consent. Polygamy is a longstanding tradition that continues today and can be found in the bible, so clearly one man one woman since the start of time argument is a lie as well. But this isn’t about pologamy. And blood relatives is a whole different discussion that has nothing to do with this one.
Gay people have been everywhere throughout history in significantly sufficient numbers that the occurrence has to be considered a “natural” population, though clearly a minority. Some people are born gay. This exists in most other species as well. If you want to make a moral judgement, you can say it is bad, but not unnatural. The moral judgement has changed throughout history as well. There have been times and places where it has been accepted and times of persecution.
If some religious figure tells you it is “immoral” remember that is a judgement not all religious leaders agree with. Some Christians, Jews, and others celebrate love and commitment and want marriage equality to continue. To change the constitution would deny them the full exercise of their religious beliefs. Which religious beliefs should we write into the constitution? The law of the land should guarantee the same freedoms and rights to everyone. Equal protection under the law is the foundation of American Society. Please help America live up to the promise of liberty and justice for all by voting against discrimination.
He who finds a wife finds a good thing
and obtains favor from the LORD.
—Proverbs 18:22
There are those who like to say that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. Various verses are cited (out of context) and the verses that people use to show that homosexuality is wrong are explained away. The world wants to change God’s words and meanings into something more suitable to its sinful desires. Nevertheless, the truth stands: The Bible condemns homosexuality as a sin. Let’s look at what it says.
Lev. 18:22, “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”
Lev. 20:13, “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them”
1 Cor. 6:9-10, “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
Rom. 1:26-28, “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.”
Homosexuality is clearly condemned by the Bible. It goes against the created order of God. He created Adam and then made a woman. This is what God has ordained and it is what is right. Unlike other sins, homosexuality has a severe judgment administered by God Himself. This judgment is simple: They are given over to their passions. That means that their hearts are allowed to be hardened by their sins (Romans 1:18ff). As a result, they can no longer see the error of what they are doing. Without an awareness of their sinfulness, there will be no repentance and trusting in Jesus. Without Jesus, they will have no forgiveness. Without forgiveness, there is no salvation.
So for all you prop 8 supporters you will have your day of judgment.
Those who support a homosexual agenda assume that those who are against their agenda must have religious or intolerant reasons for opposing them. This is not necessarily the case. I believe for example, homosexuality breaks down the fiber of society. For example, I am a camp manager.. should I allow a homosexual man to be a cabin leader over young boys? If yes, then what is the problem with having a man be a cabin leader over young girls? See, when homosexuality is given equal status in society it breaks down the social structure. Should a homosexual man be allowed in a public bathroom for men? If you say yes, than you should have no problem with men and women sharing public bathrooms, correct? What about at the gym? School locker rooms? Should men and women share athletic spaces? See, homosexuality has a way of breaking down what is core to societal structure by challenging what is fundamental for a healthy society. Now, I also believe, it is not right for the government to enter into one’s bedroom, but it is careless to say homosexuality and heterosexuality deserve equal status within a society.
Crazy8:
You meant Prop. 8 “opponents”?
I found it funny that the Yes on 8’s signs were delayed by the Chinese factory they chose to use. No wonder they could afford so many cheaply made signs. The No side chose a Union shop in Kansas. Now who’s unAmerican? The Yes on 8 team has littered our streets and hope to litter our Constitution.
I have faith that California will keep discrimination out of the document designed to ensure equality.
Censoredagain, I hope they do riot in the streets.
Vote YES on PROP 8
Then let’s do this. All these quotes from the bible should reassure all of you voting Yes on Prop 8 that the final judgement will be in God’s hands not anyone else. This should then make it real simple for everyone to allow equal rights while we are living on this planet and stop trying to eliminate rights for others!
Vote No on 8!
I sure wish someone would give me one good reason why Gays should not be allowed to marry. Religion does not count. I dont care about your beliefs, I just want one reason.
For all of you who choose to use the name God in your arguments, think about this. THERE IS NO GOD.
The Bible is a book of stories not facts.
Daniel, here is your answer;
Marriage has always been viewed by society as the religious and/or civil union between a man and a woman, and has always been regarded primarily as a heterosexual institution. This has involved thousands of years of tradition. The length of this tradition has made it unnecessary to produce a clear definition defining it. But, now that this lengthy tradition of marriage is under threat, its full historical force should be leveled in now defining it as between a man and a woman. If homosexual couples want equal protection under the law, that is one thing, but to call it “marriage” is to violate the rooted tradition and meaning of marriage.
Marriage is an institution of religion that should not be state regulated. The state has an institution of it’s own called “Civil Unions”. The state should recognize civil unions between same sex couples, since they should be afforded the same rights under government as any other partnership (i.e. marriage). The idea of marriage should be defined only in the context of religious beliefs and the state should not have any power over what the church deems as appropriate or inappropriate.
Marriage between a man and a woman is the basis for creating and defining a family It’s been this way throughout history, regardless of religion, in ALL societies from primative to developed. It is natural law. It provides the structure for procreating children and then nurturing, educating, and developing them into productive members of society. Each child needs a father and a mother in their upbringing to model both. There is ample evidence that when either are missing, poverty and dysfunction increases (however noble the efforts of the single parent).
Regarding marriage, race is a superficial attribute whereas gender is not. A man and a woman from different racial backgrounds can unquestionably procreate children and provide father and mother models in nurturing, educating, and developing them. Two people of the same sex simply cannot do this basic marital function. For a judge to compare racial differences to sexual differences (or orientation) shows plain ignorance of biological and historical facts, as well as judicial incompetence.
Society needs to improve the institution of marriage, not weaken it. Same-sex marriage would be another deterioration to marriage (after no fault divorce), denigrating it to mere illicit cohabitation
Crazy8,
I must admit, you are the only person who has every given me one good reason as to why marriage should be between a man and a woman. All other answers have been (Because, Bible, Garble, etc…)
Thank you Crazy8 for making this a clear picture for me.
I have one last word for you Crazy8, intelligent.
Most have made up their minds before leaving home.
Here is a couple videos that I found on the issue. Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwERvTRFbBE
And the other view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1wM7xb6f1I
As we can see kids and schools are the heart of the issue.
Polygamy is equally dangerous to the fiber of society. If a man marries two women, and those two women marry two other men who each marry four women and so on… you get the picture. Mix in homosexuality and it becomes even a bigger mess. Mix in divorce, broken families, child-parent relationships, and child psychology and well, you get the picture. Let alone, who has rights to any given property, children, and how taxes might work. See the real issue is whether monogamy is best. If it is best for society, we should promote it, and not move backwards. That would be like giving our children a science book from 1908. It might have some good stuff, but we have progressed so much since then. If we know monogamy is superior, and most of society is living by it and okay with it, why revert?
During the civil rights movement, there was justification for discrimination guiled by the phrase “separate, but equal.” That was eventually determined to be WRONG and in fact discriminatory.
Why can’t all of the Yes on 8 supporters see that a “civil union” is another form of discrimination. By separating the two groups, yet allowing them access to the same rights, they are still discriminating.
If we want to strengthen marriage, why don’t we BAN divorce? Doesn’t that weaken marriage?
“The Yes on 8 team has littered our streets and hope to litter our Constitution.”
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. First, in May 2008 four judges overturned the expressed will of the people so to rectify the situation some people get Yes on 8 signs (and are not the only cause with signs - why do you think Yes on 8 people are the only one with signs?). Then those signs are methodically stolen and damaged and uprooted and thrown out in the streets and then the Yes on 8 people get blamed for it? That makes so much sense.
And while some have discussed this here in a religious manner and while I have my own personal religious belief on the matter, as far as Prop.8 goes I have only discussed it with others from a legal point of view and there is good legal reason to restrict the definition of marriage to that between a man and a woman.
“By separating the two groups, yet allowing them access to the same rights, they are still discriminating.”
Yes, Yes on 8 supporters are being discriminated against because their unions are called “marriages” but they want them to be called “civil unions” because “civil union” is obviously better. Can you see the bad logic you are using? If both sides have equal rights then why is one side saying the other one’s label is better?
And, yes, heterosexuals could certainly stand a little strengthening of their own marriages That doesn’t mean gay marriage should be allowed.
To piggyback really quick on what Crazy 8 said: The law is interested in registering relationships where two people have a high probability of bringing more people into the society. It shouldn’t have to be concerned with registering every relationship where two people say they like each other but that does not mean it is saying that straights are better than gays. It would be like me complaining that the government won’t give me a gun license when I don’t even own a gun; no, the law doesn’t think that people that own guns are better than me, it’s just saying they are the ones that need the gun license. But nowadays people misunderstand the marriage issue as the law conferring a “privileged status” on married couples.
And there’s nothing stopping gays from coining a term that describes a gay union but they seem to think their union won’t be valid unless they can hijack the term “marriage” and change its definition.
I was blocked on my way into a polling place with “No on 8″.
I thought it was illegal for people to block or intimidate people from voting.
People need to allow the voting process to happen.
At the end of the day, it comes down to equal rights. EVERY American should have equal rights, not just those you like or agree with. EVERYONE!!
Leave marriage alone
If prop. does not succeed, will it be legal for me to marry my brother John? This is a serious question. Thanks, Jim
all you so call church people can not even keep marriage by a man and a women sacred, divorce is at it highest rate all the cheating and changing of partners makes marriage a joke, it is now just a piece of paper used to get a bigger tax break. marriage in the country is a joke, more people that go to church are divorced than married.
Prop 8 Wins
At this point roughly 478,370 votes remain uncounted. These votes come from various Counties which only 3 seem to be against the Prop in current results (Santa Clara, Monterey and Yolo) which will gain roughly 53,636 No and 44,452 Yes Votes. This is not enough to counter Kings, Imperial, San Bernardino, Riverside, San Benito and San Diego yes votes which will add 389,240 Yes and 228,718 No Votes.
The Prop Wins! It is amazing how OC Register cannot put these numbers together and are still holding on to hope that Santa Clara, Monterey and Yolo Counties will shock the State.
If Prop 8 passes, it is an embarrassment to California. I’m embarrased to be part of it.
Marriage is taught at home, not in schools. No churches will be forced to marry anyone. You can hold and teach your own beliefts to your children, but the state and the church should be separated.
Protect marriage?? Why don’t we start with divorce, The Bachelor, Who wants to Marry a Millionaire, Who wants to Marry a Midget, etc.
What a joke. I am embarrased to be a Californian this morning. I thought we were better than that.